Welcome back to another episode of the Awakened Heart. This week, Bill De La Cruz and Guadalupe Guajardo give the viewers an extra episode with special guest Kathy Kniep. We hope you enjoy the extra content! Be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast and share it with your friends.

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Awakened Heart Ep. #5 With Kathy Kniep

We started this show a few years ago to engage people in conversations around connection, race, climate, culture, and all of the things happening in our relationships in our worlds, country, and communities. We decided to start this new phase of conversations called The Awakened Heart: Rehumanizing Our Connections.

It was the brainchild of my good friend Guadalupe, who I met when I lived in Oregon. We serve on the Board of Youth Villages together. We had been talking a lot about all of these issues around race, how people see each other through this lens of race, and understanding that race is a social construct. It was created based on people. I always think about if race is a social construct and we no longer believe that race is an identifier of who people are, would racism still exist? I don’t know. I think about it all the time though. If it is a social construct that’s rooted in our brains, can we rewire our brains to look at people differently?

It is an important question because one of the ways we are having discourse around race is looking at people from their color, and looking at people of color differently than we look at White people and vice versa. A lot of this discourse around the country and communities has been rooted in seeing White people as the problem. When Guadalupe and I talked, we both talked about how we knew White people who were doing some great things and were not afraid to have this conversation. They wanted to be engaged and yet didn’t want to be engaged from the perspective of being blamed or being looked at as the problem.

We talked and thought, “Let’s start a new show called The Awaken Heart: Rehumanizing Our Connections, and let’s bring in people from that racial group to talk about some of the things they are doing.” That is how the Awakened Heart was born. We were looking at how we look at all of the allies and keep everyone engaged in what we are doing, and to be able to move this conversation from the divisive nature that it is, to something that rehumanizes our connections and sees each other through the lens of who we authentically are, versus all these stories that we are making up about them.

As you know, The Origination Point was designed to start to look at how all of these racial categories and this discourse we are in start. Not only how they start but looking at what our role is in shifting the tide and in creating connections. We have had a number of guests. We have a wonderful guest that we will be introducing to you. I want to welcome my co-host, Guadalupe Guajardo. How are you? It is good to see you.

I’m always extra great when I’m with you, Bill, and with a new guest. We got Kathy Kniep with us, but I want to say a couple of things. Thank you for that great introduction about Origination and how the Awakened Heart lives within that show. I live as a spiritual being, having a human experience. As I go through life, I listen to the stories people share from their hearts, which is why it is Awakened Hear. When I came onto that from Dr. Lisa Miller, I thought, “That is what I want to call this.”

There are two major driving points. One of them is that decades ago, tools for diversity were made up of an African-American man and a White female. A recovering attorney is what she would call herself. I call myself a recovering Catholic nun. Kathleen used to teach racism in the law up at Lewis and Clark. When we would do our workshops, she did a piece on racism, the law, affirmative action, and all the White people who had been instrumental in advancing so much of the racial inequality toward greater equality.

I will never forget this. One of the young White women in the audience said this, almost with a quiver in her voice, “Why don’t we know this about ourselves? Why don’t we know that as White people, we have been doing good work all along and all alongside people of color?” That stayed with me. When we are talking and inevitably, if someone doesn’t bring up race, I bring up race. It is part of a conversation we have because it is so embedded in our society, especially now that we are so divided.

The response I got when I asked my dear White friends, “Why don’t you share these stories with each other?” They’re like, “We don’t want to seem like the great White hope and the redeemers of racism, we are the good white people, or we are bringing on ourselves.” It is much bigger than that in my heart. It is about the altruism I hear that is shared, the love of neighbor that is part of this, and the sense of, “We are one with humanity.” For some, there is an element of a moral code.

 

A lot of what you said about being good White people, those are all the stereotypes that are thrown at White people when they say, “I want to be an ally. I support all people because of whatever it is they bring.” What we are working to break down is there is humility that everyone can bring into this conversation. We need to be open to listening in a way that allows for that discourse to happen. I appreciate the lens and the description that you gave.

I invited many of my White friends. Kathy, this is a testimony to you. You are like, “I have this invitation. I have an opportunity. Guadalupe is inviting me. I’m going to respond.” Many I have had to dodge and follow up with. You have been graciously making yourself available. Kathy is a longtime friend and has a special place in my heart because of her steadfastness. When you talk about your life, you are willing to talk about what has gotten difficult. That is what has touched me. No matter how difficult things get, you do not give up, which tells me so much about your passion, commitment, and thoughtfulness.

We have talked about several parts of your personal and professional life. I want you to feel free to share from those places that feel the most comfortable, but I want you somewhere in here to share as specifically. How do you keep on keeping on? That is part of the story that I hope you will share about your life. Please tell us more about yourself and your personal and professional journey.

Thank you, Guadalupe. Bill, it is lovely to meet you. I have heard many wonderful things about you. It feels nice to be in conversation with you two. I have to say that it was humbling to receive the invitation. I’m a flawed human being. I’m a particularly flawed White person. It feels uncomfortable to do this. When we were chatting before, Guadalupe, you asked me to think about how I push through the fear of doing equity and justice work, particularly racial justice work. I realized, “I don’t push through the fear. I just bring it right along with me.

This may be an example of that. As comfortable as it is to sit and chat with you, it is uncomfortable to talk about these things publicly for a variety of reasons. It is important to do that. I appreciate the prompt for me to think about it, and you are prompting other people to think about altruism and racial justice. Thank you. It is great to be here.

I think about these themes certainly in my work and my personal life. I work with nonprofit organizations. I get to work with people who are mission-driven, values-oriented, and racial justice-minded. I get to contribute to their missions in some small way, which feels great. I get paid for that. When I think about striving for altruism and oneness with humanity and the themes that you presented, I work harder to do that in many ways in my personal life as a volunteer. I thought I might at least start off by talking about some of my volunteer work.

I came across a few quotes that speak to me about your themes and set the stage for me. I want to share them briefly. The first one is not original, but it is so powerful. Fannie Lou Hamer says, “Nobody is free until everybody is free.” I feel that deeply and viscerally. It is important for White people, in particular, and other people of privilege.

I’m a cis, able-bodied, upper middle-class White woman. It is important for me to remember that my own safety and well-being are tied directly to the safety and well-being of the least safe and the least well-off among us. We need to be honest with ourselves about that. There is altruism, but let’s also be real about how it impacts us to live in a world where there is oppression.

Another quote I like is, “If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else.” That is Booker T. Washington. By far and away, I get more out of volunteering than I give every single time. I meet incredible people. I learn new cultures and new ways of thinking. I get that endorphin rush and that helper’s high. Some people call it that. That quote also resonates with me.

There is another one, and this is my all-time favorite, “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” It is an African proverb. If we want to live in a better world, we got to work together. Those three quotes resonated with me when I was thinking about these themes. I have a question for you two about my volunteer experience here. It is not all race-related. Would you like me to narrow it to racial justice work or speak to these topics more generally?

 

One of the things I wrote down as you were talking was about this idea of awareness versus saving. What I heard from you is you have a heightened sense of awareness and not a savior mentality. I don’t know if that is something you want to speak to. It is important for people to be aware that this isn’t about saving, fixing, or helping as much as it is being aware of how privilege plays out and how folks who are more marginalized for whatever reason don’t need to be fixed or pulled up as much as being aware that it is a part of our culture and community. That would be great to talk a little bit about that with you. What does it mean to you to go together? I love that quote, “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” How does that play out in the world you live in?

When I think about going together, I think about needing to look around and look beyond the people you already know. One of the most important things we need to do is to reach beyond our usual circles of friends and family members. It is one of the things that are broken in our country. People are separated by culture, political beliefs, and geography.

People are separated by culture, political beliefs, and geography. Trying to pretend that there aren't differences and hardships out there is its own kind of oppression. Share on X

It’s working on this idea that together is critical for creating better lives for all of us, even those of us that are privileged. I don’t want to live in a walled place. I don’t want to live in a community where everybody looks like me and thinks like me. It is boring. It is not the world that we live in either. Trying to pretend that there aren’t differences and hardships out there is its own kind of oppression.

How do you work through your own fear? One of the things you said is, “I don’t think I put it aside. I just bring it with me.” Speaking out can be a scary thing because you don’t know how people are gonna respond. As much as I do this work, I know that on any given presentation, podcast, or dialogue, someone could take offense to something I say. I know how I work through it. I’m curious about what your strategies are, and what ideas you can give others. Part of why we wanted to do this show is how we can empower others to continue to speak up and not be afraid.

The greatest fear is possibly offending someone or worse, causing harm. There is this idea in our White supremacist culture of perfectionism. I am a product of that culture. It is fear of being wrong. I have learned that the most meaningful work is the hardest work. To shy away from that is not as satisfying. I want to learn and grow. The only way to grow is to try new things, even if it means you fail.

The only way to grow is to try new things, even if it means you fail. Share on X

Lupe, any thoughts? I know you have a lot of things in your head there.

I have come across many White people who want to play it safe. I don’t always understand it. Maybe you can speak to this. It is shortsighted and limited to want to play it safe. I don’t know if it is part of the human condition to limit. As I listen to you, you have said, “Those are not my values. That is not my belief system.” I want to know, how did you get your belief system? Where did you get it? Where do you draw on that there aren’t more White people like you? Part of why I wanted you to come on and talk about that element of fear is because I know many good White people who would go further for themselves and others if they weren’t guarded. You don’t seem to have that.

That is a huge compliment, especially coming from you, and also not always true. I’m guilty over the years and even now of sometimes not taking that risk and speaking up when I should. I like to think I’m getting better at it. To play it safe means to maintain the status quo. The status quo is not okay. It is not okay for other people and me. It impacts my life to live in a world that is divided and violent.

You asked about where some of these values came from, and not surprisingly, my parents played a big role in that. When I think about the values my parents instilled, there were many. They were instilled implicitly and explicitly. Many things were modeled for me and maybe not talked about, but also they made a point to talk about these things with me.

A few of the most compelling ones, and at the top of the list, is they instilled in me the idea that how you treat people is fundamentally important, and to treat them with kindness and dignity. They modeled that every day. Generosity, and not just money, though they are both generous with money. If I called my mom or dad now and said, “My dear friend, Guadalupe needs help, and I need you to come out to help me help her,” they would be here tomorrow. They would hop on a plane, and they would come out. That is the generosity I’m talking about.

Incidentally, my brother, who is my only sibling, has these characteristics. Service to the community was modeled for me by my parents and also lots of people around me, neighbors, and family members. When I say community, I mean all of the community, neighborhood, church, school, country, and however you would think of community, and also gratitude. My parents were regularly pointing that out to my brother and me, but not making us feel guilty about things. They would remind us of our grandparents who lived through the depression. My mom grew up in a low-income family. She had a rich life but was economically poor. It was instilled in us not to take things for granted.

Those are some of the things I can easily point to in thinking about how I was raised. Also, other family members. I had a great aunt and uncle who did incredible civil rights work, and then an aunt who has volunteered in the arts and human service organizations for decades. I have had many people model and normalize it for me. This was expected. People weren’t ever looking for praise about it. It was part of dinner conversations, conversations at the mailbox, and things like that.

What I love about your sharing all of that is if I were listening to this and had children, I would go, “What are the explicit and implicit values I’m communicating to them?” That is what I love about listening to this. It is important to list them and say, “It is not an accident. I am who I am. I got to put it together like this because I had parents, neighbors, and relatives that influenced me. Our children wait for us to influence them because they are constantly scanning, listening, and wondering how to put their lives together.” That is why I realize I was grateful to have you share that.

Guadalupe, what about you? Do you remember your parents talking to you about values, even if not directly?

I tell people, “If you look up Catholicism, it will have a picture of my very pious mother. If you looked up the word activist, it would have a picture of my Jewish father.” They were a great combination. My parents were migrant farmers. We were surviving class. We were looking forward to being working class. My father would say, “It is not enough to get ahead. We have to bring others along with us.” That is how I live my life. Who can I bring along with me as I do good in the world? It is better together, as you were saying, Kathy. That is a piece. How about you, Bill?

I knew you were going to ask me that. I was doing my best not to think about it while you were talking. I have had a crazy childhood and upbringing. I lack cultural identity. A lot of those things around people’s identity, seeing people for their authentic selves, and being respectful of people are all things that grew out of a challenging childhood. Even though I could say that the way I learned these lessons was not the way I modeled these for my children, I still believe that what I went through made me who I am now.

I think about the idea of authenticity because I didn’t know who my authentic self was, not as a child, not in my 20s, and probably not even in my 30s. Authenticity is important, accepting people for who they are, and realizing that everyone has the ability to hurt, love, and help. We are all a mix of all of that. I have been both of those my whole life. What drives me today are those values of authenticity, respect, acceptance, and wanting to create a more humane space for everyone. It is a challenging time.

 

I want to ask Kathy a question. Guadalupe knows I do a lot through story. I’m going to tell a story first and it will result in a question. I travel across the country. I work with people from every identifying factor you can imagine. This one question is more prevalent when I work with both White men and women when they know they are either coming to a workshop of mine or when they are told they have to be there in an organization.

Many of them either ask their boss or ask me, “Is this another workshop where I’m going to be called a racist because I’m a White man or a White woman?” I’m curious about if anyone has treated you that way in your lifetime, either implied or directly based on your race. I see that as a leading fear indicator for White people to engage in the conversation. I don’t blame them. I wouldn’t want to be demeaned or denigrated based on how people see me and think they want me to engage in a conversation. I’m curious if that has ever happened to you or if not, to someone you know. How do you respond to something like that?

I don’t think I have had it happen that someone who hadn’t interacted with me at all previously called me racist. I have had my language or behavior called racist, and rightly so. It is painful to admit that, but that has happened. Sometimes, at the moment, I can recognize it. Sometimes it is that intent versus impact and dilemma.

Sadly, I do know from relatives that for some people, race is a non-starter in a conversation. If something is BIPOC, they automatically think, “That is politically charged.” It is in the category of the book bands and the 1619 project. People have a knee-jerk reaction to classifying something or some people in a particular racial way with a certain racial lens, or in those cases, racist lenses.

 

That is interesting because you haven’t been treated that way based on how someone saw you, you did have people check you for language or behavior. That is probably a good thing that not only they were able to check you, but you were also able to take it. That is the other part of the challenge. None of us is perfect. As long as I have done this work, I know that I’m going to say something that is going to offend somebody, or I might have a blind spot. How I take it is important because that is a learning opportunity as well. We could do a whole show on all the false narratives around the things you talked about what BIPOC means, and the politicization of all of this language. We save that for another episode because we could be here all night if we jumped into that.

Something you said reminded me that when I started learning about racial justice work and activism in my professional world, I was working at the YWCA Clark County in Vancouver, across the river from Portland, where I am. The first person we hired to come in and work with our staff and board members was Guadalupe.

I will always remember her saying at the outset of our project, and she used herself as an example, which was particularly powerful to me since I respected her work and since she is a woman of color. She said, “It is not if I’m going to offend someone. It is when I’m going to offend someone. What matters is how I respond.” That was such a critical lesson for me. It also gave me a little bit of courage to think about, “If Guadalupe is going to make mistakes and she has been doing this for so long, she is thoughtful and good at this work, I guess it is okay for me to make mistakes as well.”

That gave you the courage to step out a little bit.

Yes, it did.

Maybe it evolved for me, but I also learned to ask to give me a hand. I thought about that in response to people giving you feedback. People will not give feedback if it is going to look like it is going to be costly. If it looks like it is going to cost me something, I’m not going to do it.

What do you mean by if it is costly?

The person is going to get defensive. They are going to find some way to deflect. They are going to find some way to turn it around. That is what I mean by it is going to be costly. If people approached you, it was a compliment that you were approachable and accessible, which I like to think is what I strive for because the only way to grow is to get feedback.

I remember doing this workshop with people who were severely vision impaired. I remember asking a question. I said, “Would you raise your hand if you ever had that experience?” I already said, “I never worked with people who were vision impaired. I knew I had normal language for normal people who can see, not for people who can’t.” Instead of being upset or angry, they laughed. They went, “Could you tell us what you see when we raise our hands?”

What I hear you say is even though these can be heady and serious topics, we need to stop taking ourselves seriously and realize we are going to make missteps. This is what I tell people. This is imperfect work. The work of rehumanizing our connections is imperfect. We are going to make missteps. If we beat each other up for a misstep, then we are not going to reconnect with each other. We are going to further divide. The hope for everything we are talking about is, “How do we rehumanize these connections? How do we see the humanity that is alive within each one of us, and realize that we are the change that we want to see?”

The work of rehumanizing our connections is imperfect. We are going to make missteps. Share on X

Some days I question what I see. I could either say, “That is the problem with humanity.” I could say, “What is it about me that is seeing that reflection?” I listened to a podcast about the mirror and how the mirror reflects who we are. When I see things I don’t like, I can go to Maya Angelou’s quote, “If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, change your attitude.” That is a lot of what we are talking about. Kathy, any last thoughts or encouragement to folks as we start to wind down?

I want to say one more thing about this topic that we are on because it also goes back to this question you asked about pushing through fear. In doing this work, White people have to do this work or we are not going to make progress on the racial justice front. However uncomfortable, stressful, or fearful it is for me, I can recognize easily that those feelings pale in comparison to what it must feel like to be a person of color in our country. When you think about it in those terms, it makes it a lot easier to step out and try to do the work.

Guadalupe told me you have a lot of stories. Before we conclude, maybe you like to share one with us and our audience? Maybe your prompts will help, Guadalupe.

I’m going to trust Kathy to share a story because I want to have you back. When we have had 5 or 10 other people, I want to have you back. I love for you to share something that inspires and motivates you to keep on keeping on.

I’m sorry to tell you both. I don’t know that I have a story. Although in thinking about your question just now, what keeps me keeping on is getting to be in a community with people like both of you. Bill, you are in my community. I hope that is all right with you. It enriches my life personally and my work to be in a community with people who care about racial justice in particular. Also, beyond that, these larger concepts of oneness and people who believe in altruism and want to see real change happen in our world.

I like to work in my own backyard. One of the reasons is that it is easier to feel agency for me in working in a specific geographic area, in part because I can do the work in a relationship with people. They are people that will stay in my life even after our project is over. We can see in our own backyard what we have done together because we live here. Something that keeps me going is being able to work with people here in Portland. These days, virtually, we can work with people who have ties to Portland, even if they are not here, Bill. We can see the progress that we’re making together.

It sounds like those connections are what drive you and give you the ability to keep moving through these conversations. Before we wrap up, Guadalupe, maybe you can finish this conversation, and I will close us out.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of what I wanted you to share, Kathy. I have learned more about you and more about the depth and breadth of your commitment and passion, which I knew was there. This has been an absolute delight. I want to have you back to share those stories that we didn’t get to. I will remind you of the experiences you have had that have inspired me to inspire others. I want to thank you, Kathy, for accepting this invitation, and for bringing the full sum of your self, experience, background, passion, and commitment.

The beauty of this show is we never know where it is going to go. Where it is going to go is usually the right place. I want to thank Kathy for being a part of our program. I want to thank you, Guadalupe, for inviting her and for everything that was brought into this conversation. I’m looking forward to seeing where we go and how this evolves. Kathy, any last words before we conclude?

I want to thank you both for having me on. I love the prompt to think more about altruism, love of neighbor, and racial justice. I look forward to our next conversation.

You are tuning in to the Origination Point. This segment we are bringing to you is called the Awakened Heart: Rehumanizing Our Connections. These are grasping stories from folks who are doing things to reconnect with each other. Our encouragement to you is to reach out to somebody. Maybe it is a neighbor, friend, or family member you have lost touch with. Rehumanize yourself to them. Ask them how they are. Ask them their story. Share parts of yourself and be vulnerable.

The ultimate goal of what I do is to make the world a more humane place. Everyone I connect with is a little piece of that goal to make the world a more humane place, which I don’t know if I will see on our planet in my lifetime. I see little pockets of it and pieces of it. What I do know is if we can continue to plant seeds and people can continue to do that, maybe my little grandkids who are 6 and 3 will see that in their lifetime.

I will know that all of us have contributed to the creation of that. As that quote said, “If you want to go far, go together.” Thank you for tuning in. Thank you to our guests. Always thank you to my cohost, Guadalupe. If you are inspired, reach out to us. Let us know your stories, and share this with your family, friends, and community. Remember to keep growing.

Thank you, Bill and Kathy.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

• Kathy Kniep – LinkedIn
• Contact@DelaCruzSolutions.com
• TikTok – @Bill.Delacruz
• Twitter – @BilldelaC
• Instagram – @BilldelaC
• www.DelaCruzSolutions.com
• https://Anchor.fm/origination-point-podcast/support