Welcome back to another episode of the Awakened Heart. This week, Bill de la Cruz and Guadalupe Guadalajara are joined by guest Mollie Reavis. Be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast and share it with your friends.
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Awakened Heart – Ep. #9 With Mollie Reavis
This show was created to build a community and a network of people across the globe that want want to have conversations and hear people’s stories about race, inclusion, and all of the things that are important to us. It creates a stronger sense of belonging to almost rehumanize ourselves to each other in ways that are different than what we’re used to. The show was started as a way to remind us all that what we’ve experienced as adults is connected to what we grew up with. There’s a lot of healing and understanding when we blend both of them.
We have a series that we have been doing called the Awakened Heart. My co-host Guadalupe and I have been friends for a while now. We were talking about how we both knew a lot of White folks who were doing things in their community. They were working with groups who have been marginalized in a lot of ways by White people. They have found ways to interact with communities that are different from them and engage with people who are different from them. We also realized that when White people want to tell their stories, a lot of times, people encourage them to be quiet as if what they’re doing doesn’t matter.
This is an opportunity where we know that what everyone does on the planet matters in creating a more heartfelt and connected world and community. We are highlighting the folks from our White community who are doing things, growing themselves and being a part of this change that we’re all connected to right now. We’ve realized what divisiveness is. We know that the way to be connected is to have an awakened heart. We want to awaken your heart and mind to somebody’s story that has been important to them in their personal journey, so it’s important to all of us. I‘m going to turn it over now to my co-host, Guadalupe Guadalajara. She is going to introduce our guest. How are you, Guadalupe?
I’m quite fine. Let me say a couple of things about myself, and then I want to introduce our guest. I always let people know that I’m a sister of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary. Our charism or the face of God that we put forward is the full development of the human person, which is always about the journey toward personal growth, transformation, and change. A big piece of it for me is about healing and repairing the world.
Our guest is another member of my women’s religious community, Holy Name Sisters. It’s Sister Mollie Reavis. I‘ve known Mollie since I entered in 1981 but I would always hear from others that Mollie is doing some amazing work with the Muslim community. Whenever the Muslim community was mentioned, Mollie‘s name was mentioned. The dominant culture and certainly Holy Name Sisters know very little about that population. They’re on our side of town, not far away from Lake Oswego on the edge of Beaverton.
I wanted to invite Mollie to share with us. Mollie, how is it that you decided this was a group that you wanted to get to know more about, grow in your journey, and be a support and an ally to the Muslim community in Portland that has not always been welcomed? They often live in terror of terrorism against the Muslim community. Nothing seems to have detoured you. You are faithful. You are steady in staying an ally, aligned, and supported.
I wanted to use this opportunity for you to tell us about your inner journey and for us to have a conversation. We will have an opportunity to ask you some questions and dive a little deeper into some areas. Mollie, what can you most remember about your first time? Either a stereotype or something that you heard about the Muslim religion and the Muslim community that piqued your interest. There were some threads in there that you kept pulling and following along the way. Tell us that part of your journey.
First of all, thank you to you and Bill for inviting me because it made me step back and think, “How did I get involved with the Muslim community?” It began in the late 1990s when I was at St. Mary’s Academy in downtown Portland. It’s an all-girls Catholic high school. We had a few Muslim students at the school. The first ones came with older brothers and sisters who were part of the Middle Eastern Studies program at Portland State University, which is next door to us.
I had gotten acquainted with this particular family because he and his wife had both been students here in the United States when they were in college. Their daughter wanted to study in the United States as her parents had done. They figured out that it would be easier for her if she completed the last couple of years of high school and improved her English and so on.
One day, this man said to me, “What do Catholics think of Muslims?” I said, “I know that you’re very aware of the presence of God. You pray five times a day. You try to do God’s will. I knew that the word Islam means surrender to God’s will. You’re devoted to your family.” He said, “Not you. What about the official Catholics? What about the Pope and the Vatican officials?” I had to admit that I didn’t know too much about what Catholics, especially the official Catholics thought about Muslims. I said, “I’ll try to find out.” I started doing some research into the topic.
What I’ll be sharing with you is a combination of the results of my research plus some of the experiences that I’ve had. One of the first things I came across was a document called Nosta aetate, which was from the Second Vatican Council. It talked about relationships with other religions. There was a whole section about Islam. I’m not sure if we have always lived up to the ideals in this document but I liked it. I brought a little piece of it with me. I’ll share and comment on it as we go.
“The church also has high regard for Muslims. They worship God who is one living in subsistence, merciful, and almighty, and the creator of heaven and earth who has spoken to men.” I found out later when we had some presentations about the Quran that Muslims believe that the Quran is their holy book. It’s the direct words of God as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. It’s very sacred to them. They also strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan.
First of all, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are called the Abrahamic religions. We have a lot in common than sometimes we realize. This document also says that the religion of Islam can be described in one simple phrase, “Submission to the one God or Allah.” I’ve heard people say that they think Allah is some pagan God or something. It’s the Arabic word for God. They believe in the same God that Christians and Jewish people do. It also is interesting to me that they venerate Jesus as a prophet and honor Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Muslim Religion: Nostra Aetate says that the religion of Islam can be described in one simple phrase, “Submission to the one God or Allah.”
One time, I gave a presentation with another Muslim woman who is a friend of mine. It was entitled Jesus and Mary: Christian and Muslim Perspectives. I learned a lot from her. I was amazed to find that there’s an entire chapter or surah in the Quran about Miriam, the mother of Jesus. The important difference is that Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God or the second person of the blessed Trinity. Muslims believe that he was a human being, albeit a great prophet.
Besides some of these other ideas, this is another quote from that document. It says, “Further, Muslims await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection, especially by way of prayer, alms-giving, and fasting.” Devout Muslims pray five times a day. Some of the ones I know, do that. Some of them don’t. I’ve been to the Muslim prayer services. Some of their prayers are in Arabic but I’ve asked people to translate them for me. They sound very much like our Psalms. I find their ideas of God and our ideas of God are similar.
This is interesting. I have a lot of questions. You said that this all started with the Second Vatican Council that this was written in. When was that? What year or timeframe was that?
It’s about 1960. I know that this document has had its 50th anniversary. Do you remember, Guadalupe, when the Second Vatican Council was?
It’s from 1964 to 1968.
That’s a pretty recent time. It’s interesting how we do better at reading and writing it than actualizing it in terms of how it plays. It’s fascinating to hear that. When you talk about even the commonalities, I wonder what your thoughts are. How do we become so divided around religion when it has those commonalities around who we all worship and things like that even though we worship differently? It’s also great that gentleman asked you the question, “What does the Catholic world say about Muslims that caused you to do so much work?” That’s great.
When you start looking back at history during the time of the Prophet Muhammad, he had quite good relationships with Christians but shortly after his death, there were conflicts that broke out. The one that comes to my mind and other people’s mind is the time of the Crusades. There are all kinds of documents talking about how much violence there was.
We always think of Francis of Assisi. There’s a film that was put out in the last ten years called The Sultan and The Saint. It’s about St. Francis and the Sultan of Egypt. At the time of the Fourth Crusade, they got together and had some dialogue. They didn’t solve all the problems but at least they talked to one another. The film portrays them as both human beings who ended up admiring the other for their beliefs and some of their actions.
Some of the books that I’ve read bring out that as far as Christian-Muslim relations throughout the years, both groups have been victims and aggressors. It’s important for us when we’re having our dialogues to try to see ourselves the way other people see us because both groups have done things that were not in keeping with the ideals of their religion.
It's important for us when we're having our dialogues to try to see ourselves the way other people see us. Share on XThat‘s an interesting perspective as well because I’ve always thought that if all of us go back far enough in our ancestry, we will find a time when we were both the oppressed and the oppressor. We all have those things to fall back on. You said that in the early days, they could have a conversation with each other. Wouldn’t that be wonderful today if people could have a conversation with each other in this God-provided world that we live in? Thank you for letting me ask a few questions. I‘ll let you go on with your story.
I’ll say one thing here that comes to my mind because we talk about conversations. In 2007, there was a controversy with Pope Benedict XVI because of some comments that he made. He was quoting an earlier person. He later said that the quote didn’t express his views but it was controversial. As a result, a wonderful letter was written at an interfaith institute in Jordan. If my memory is serving me correctly, it was signed by about 138 Muslim scholars of different branches of Islam. That’s another thing I found out. There are many branches of Islam. The main divisions are between the Sunnis and the Shia, but then there are other subgroups too as the way there is in Christianity.
This letter is called A Common Word Between Us and You. It’s about the love of God and the love of neighbors being foundational principles of both Christianity and Islam. It has been the basis of many conferences and workshops all over the world. I haven’t heard as much about them lately but I do know they have a website, ACommonWord.com. There have been conferences at Yale, Cambridge, and Georgetown University. A lot of good dialogues have happened as a result of their writing that letter. It was a good conversation starter.
It‘s quite interesting how they codified some of these things. The language is there even if the intent isn’t always there. It sounds like this gentleman asking you about that one question took you to some very interesting facts. It lays a great foundation for people to start to think about the fact that in some ways, we’re socialized to believe that we have a lot that is different from each other. Even within the context you’re talking about, there’s so much more that connects us even though we call our religions different names and have different practices. Now that you have all that history that you shared with us, how did that impact you working in the Muslim community in Portland?
In the beginning, Guadalupe used the word serendipitous. Some of what happened to me were very serendipitous. There are two groups. The Muslim Educational Trust was a group that started before 9/11. It was started to educate both Muslims and non-Muslims about Islam. There were three people who started it. They were all friends. I became acquainted with them in a serendipitous way. Let me say that the parents of one of our students at St. Mary’s, Gail and Ayoob Ramjan, were two of the founders. The third one was a man named Wajdi Said. Wajdi at one time had an office over at Koinonia House at Portland State.
Muslim Religion: The Muslim Educational Trust was a group that started before 9/11. It starts to educate both Muslims and non-Muslims about Islam.
We had a Muslim student who was a senior and had plenty of credits to graduate but because of immigration problems, she and her family were going to be moving to Canada. That was in the spring about two months before school was out. Here was this poor girl who was going to have to find a high school in Canada for two months. We thought, “She has plenty of credits. Let her graduate from St. Mary’s. We can issue her diploma early.”
The principal at the time was going to be gone at a network of schools meeting. I was the assistant principal. She said to me, “Would you take care of this, have a little ceremony, and give her a diploma?” I knew that there was a Middle Eastern Studies program at Portland State. They had resources that teachers could access for different countries. I thought, “I’m going to go over there. Maybe there’s a quote in the Quran or something about education or knowledge that I can use in my little talk.”
I went over to the Middle Eastern Studies department. They said, “We do have Qurans here but you have to use them here. If you go over to the Koinonia House, we’re sure that the Muslim Educational Trust will probably give you a Quran. You can have it to look through and pick out a quote.” I went over and walked in the door to this office. Who was there? It was the receptionist who was the mother of one of our students. She was happy to see me. They were very cordial and then they said, “Here’s a Quran. You can take it with you.” They were happy that there was someone interested.
They told me more about the Muslim Educational Trust and what they were trying to do and so on. Fast forward to 9/11. Right afterward, people were very interested in knowing more about Islam, “How could the terrorists do what they did?” The Muslim Educational Trust had an informal speaker’s bureau. They were overwhelmed with requests from different organizations and people wanting to know more about Islam, how could this tragedy happen, and so on.
In the summer of 2003, I had gone over to a mass at St. Michael’s Church, which was a kitty corner from St. Mary’s. Afterward, it was the noon mass. I thought, “I’m going to take a walk through the park blocks before I go back to work.” I was walking along over there. They have benches on the side of the paths. Mr. Wajdi Said and one of our graduates were eating lunch together, sitting on a park bench. They said, “Sister Mollie, come on over here.” I went over. They were starting a new group called the Institute for Christian-Muslim Understanding. They said, “How would you like to join? We have had one meeting, and we’re going to have another one next week or something.”
It sounded like a good idea to me because I thought, “In these circumstances, the more we can understand each other, the better.” In the beginning, this group was very particular about having the same number of Muslims as there were Christians. Everything was divided up evenly. There were 11 Christians and 11 Muslims to start with. Nowadays, we don’t keep tabs quite so carefully but there have been a Muslim co-chair and a Christian co-chair.
The idea was that we would try to understand one another without proselytizing and trying to argue about which religion is better and so on. We were aiming to understand and appreciate each religious tradition. Before the pandemic, we were pretty good about having 1 or 2 events every year that were opened to the public. The idea was that we could educate a lot of people at the same time, both Muslims and Christians together. We usually had a potluck dinner or at least refreshments afterward or before because we found out that people who share food together facilitate conversations.
Muslim Religion: Try to understand one another without proselytizing and trying to argue about which religion is better and so on.
I have to tell you a funny story right here. I joined this group in July. This was in 2003. It was a couple of years after 9/11, which was 2001. On September 11th, 2003, they decided that it would be our initial event. It was such a short planning time. I thought, “How are we going to pull this off?” They go, “Don’t worry. It will all work out.” We made arrangements to use Hoffman Hall at Portland State University, which is a very nice building and has a big gathering space.
They said, “We will have a potluck.” I said, “How can we have a potluck when we don’t know who’s coming or how many people are going to be there?” The Muslim members said, “Don’t worry. We do this all the time.” They did have potlucks once a month over at Portland State. They said, “We have all the serving utensils. It will all work out. It always has.” I said, “Whatever you say.”
I had a potluck like that at a school once where I was facilitating conversations in the Muslim community. Ten minutes before it started, there were not many people there. Fifteen minutes later, there were 25 to 30 people and kids running around everywhere. The whole table was filled with food. We had the loveliest time together eating, talking, making mistakes with our understanding, and all those types of things.
What happened was the religion editor or the Oregonian did an article. It appeared on the front page of the Oregonian the day before, telling about this event. I was getting more worried. Four hundred people showed up. It worked out fine. They had tables around the edge of the room. They had round tables in the center. They encouraged us to sit with people we didn’t know. Christians and Muslims were mixed together. They had gone out and bought a whole bunch of pizza in case people didn’t bring enough food but people did bring food. It was wonderful. It was a very successful event.
I learned not to worry so much and not to try to be so organized. Let things happen and it will work out fine. The topic that night was the importance of understanding one another. The speakers were Dr. Nohad Toulan, may he rest in peace. He was the Head of the Urban Studies department at Portland State. The Christian speaker was Dr. Dave McCreery from Willamette University. People appreciated the opportunity to sit down and talk to one another.
When we were talking about people not understanding one another, I know from talking to different Christian groups that it was one of the blessings of belonging to the Institute for Christian-Muslim Understanding. I met Christians from many other denominations that I never would have had the opportunity to meet with, hear from, and have good discussions with, as well as many different Muslims from many different countries.
They had potlucks. The attendees were Muslims who have been in this country for years. Some of them were in the high-tech industry out in Beaverton, some were doctors in hospitals, and then some were newly arrived immigrants who were just learning English. They were trying to adjust to life in the United States. I’ve been to several of these. As far as I know, they haven’t started up again after the pandemic. I hope they will soon because it was a wonderful opportunity to get to talk with people from different backgrounds.
That’s what can happen when you break bread and talk about who you are and what’s important to you. Guadalupe, why don’t you jump in?
Mollie, I’m hearing how much this population group has enriched your life. Can you say more about how it has made your life richer and fuller, brought you joy, and any challenges that you’ve had along the way as well?
Most of our knowledge, mine included, originally anyway about Islam came through the media. Usually, it was because of some terrible terrorist event. As a result of talking with people and also reading and studying, I realized that most of the victims of terrorist groups like the Taliban, ISIS, the Islamic State, and so on are other Muslims. My interactions have made me appreciate that what these people want for their children is very much what we want for our young people. They’re looking for a better life. They want their children to be happy, well-educated, and contributors to society.
My main thing is we have a lot more in common than differences. We do have differences. There’s no doubt about it. There are groups of Christians who do things that we don’t approve of either. It’s realizing that most Muslims are good citizens. They’re devoted to their families. They practice their religion to different degrees as Christians practice to different degrees. Our values are very similar. I have gotten a lot more than I have given from meeting some wonderful people.
Christians and Muslims have a lot more in common than differences. Share on XMollie, one of the reasons that it was so important for me to bring you into this Awakened Heart episode is you have been a very quiet ambassador for the Muslim community. I don’t ever hear you saying, “I‘m a spokesperson for this. Let me tell you.” There is this gentle way that you have moved right in there close to the Muslim community. As I listen to you, misinformation and stereotypes have kept us as the dominant culture away and apart from a community of individuals.
I believe you when you say we have more in common than we do not have in common. Sharing how it has enriched your life, I realized that you are the gem in our community that needs to be brought forward. I want to tell you how much it means to me personally. You do us proud as a Holy Name Sister. In this quiet way, you’re an ambassador of the Muslim community, enriching your life and now, enriching our lives through this show. Bill, do you want to add any closing comments? Mollie, we will give you a chance to make closing comments as well.
I want to appreciate the conversation. I think a lot about the spiritual connection that we all have. I think about it from the perspective of my religious background, which didn’t resonate with me as much as spirituality does. I agree with you because my experience with people around the world is when we have these conversations, there are so many commonalities around loving our family, wanting to give our kids more, and wanting to trust that things will work out and be hopeful.
Those are all shared values that cross over all labels. A lot of what Guadalupe and I talk about is labels and how they define us rather than be a part of who we are. Even the way we talk about Christians and Muslims are labels that also have a belief system. To your point, everybody believes differently and worships uniquely as well. I appreciate having this conversation and bringing this to people’s awareness.
I‘m curious about what you would say. What do you think we need to do as a society? If you could lead anything or be a part of anything, what would that thing be that you think could help us from where we are? A lot of times, with our audiences, we want to not only give them hope but even challenge them into crossing over a line themselves and getting to know somebody that may not be a part of their identity. I‘m curious about what you would like to see, and then we will wrap it up.
What came to my mind was people have sometimes said, “What can I do?” For one thing, it’s something simple like going to the grocery store. If you see a woman in a hijab, smile and don’t act like they’re going to do you harm. Smiling at somebody is a good first step. If they have little children with them, make a comment about the child or something to show that you’re not afraid and you’re friendly.
What I’m also hearing from you is to share your humanity with them and let go. That’s a great lesson for people.
I have read somewhere that many Catholics said they didn’t know a single Muslim. This was mainly the Catholics that they were interviewing. They had ideas about Islam that they had gotten mainly from the media, which are not favorable. There are terrible things that happen. There’s no doubt about that, but those things are not representative at all of the mainstream Muslims. I have found that the ones who live in this country love this country. They’re some of the most patriotic people that I know. Take the opportunity if you can find one to try to meet a Muslim. Go to an open house at a mosque or try to have the experience of meeting one. I hope it will be a good experience.
What you talk about is a strategy to deconstruct stereotypes. It’s called individuation, where you go out and meet someone or a group of people from whatever group you have a stereotype of. You separate them from whatever that group socialized stereotype we all hear and get to know that person as an individual. They could go in all different directions. Individuation is a strategy to be able to do that. Thank you so much.
I found the statement of the mission of the Institute for Christian-Muslim Understanding. I have a brochure that I had with my things here. This would be a good goal for all of us. It says, “The Institute seeks to promote mutual understanding and open nurturing relationships between the two religious communities through community, academic, and intercultural initiatives. ICMU seeks to focus on both the dimensions of these faiths and the challenges of living them.” If we talk to one another about our beliefs and also our challenges, we would come to a better understanding.
If we talk to one another about our beliefs and also our challenges, we will come to a better understanding. Share on XThank you so much, Mollie. There’s so much I’m taking away from this and others who are tuning in. I was thinking about what you shared. The tagline behind the Awakened Heart is Rehumanizing our Connection. Your call to action is what I want to highlight. Reach out to someone who may be a Muslim in hijab. Reach out to them human-to-human. Smile, look friendly, make contact, and make a connection. It’s such a simple action that can go far. I love that we ended with Bill’s question, “What can we do when we want to do something and feel overwhelmed with the many demands of the world?”
Next time you meet someone in the grocery store or anywhere that is a Muslim and dressed as a Muslim, smile, greet them, and be friendly. That begins breaking down the stereotypes and the misinformation, and helps us make that human connection. Mollie, I want to thank you so much for taking the time, the research you did, and the time that you took to prepare for this conversation. Thank you. Bill, is there anything you want to say in closing?
I would want to thank Mollie. You’ve educated me a lot about what you’ve learned in both the similarities and the differences in the Muslim and Christian religions and beliefs. It sounds like what you’ve been able to do pre–COVID in having meals with the community and interacting with folks has been enlightening for you. Also, for them to be able to interact with somebody who they might not look at as understanding or accepting of them, and to have that experience.
I would remind us all that when we see somebody that we think is a different religion, make our approach kind and respectful. I always ask. Everyone has their way, so remember that piece. We don’t want to overwhelm each other. At the same time, we want to connect. Guadalupe and Mollie, thank you so much. It has been a great treat to have you on our show.
I’ll close by reminding everybody that the purpose of this is to get you to think about the things that we have talked about. If you’re curious about whatever religion it is, seek people out, step out of your comfort zone, start to get through the socialized stereotypical labels that you hear on the news or read on the internet, and get to know the person. The rehumanization of us is creating connections through our hearts and not through our heads. Our head is what we know and our heart is who we are.
That’s why this is called the Awakened Heart because we will wake up everybody’s heart across the globe. Thank you for tuning in to another session on the Awakened Heart. Thank you, Mollie, for being our guest. As always, Guadalupe, it has been a pleasure to co-facilitate this conversation with you. We will see you next time on the Awakened Heart.