Welcome back to another episode of the Awakened Heart. This week, Bill and Guadalupe are joined by Sharon Benson. Be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast and share it with your friends.

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Awakened Heart

You’re reading our series called The Awakened Heart. The Awakened Heart is a series that myself and my cohost, Guadalupe, created to look at what people are doing to support their communities in the areas of equity, inclusion and belonging. We’re especially focusing on White people. For those of you who have tuned in to my show, you know that I’m not big on the whole identity of race because it’s a social construct.

I often wonder, if we didn’t buy into seeing people as color, would racism still exist? The challenging and real part of that whole conversation is in the America that we all live in, every race is stereotyped, judged, or biased. It doesn’t matter if it’s Black, White, or Brown. As I traveled the country and worked in White spaces, a few things have come up.

One is, is this going to be a workshop or a conversation where I’m going to be called a racist just because I’m a White person? Are White people doing this savior approach to help communities of color? These are both unfair characterizations of a whole group of people. What we’re doing with this series is inviting White folks from different communities and places in different roles in their life. They are here to talk about the things they’re doing in a place where they won’t be demeaned or accused of being a savior and wanting to help, to talk about their stories and the things they’re doing that are impacting their communities and why they do it.

We’ve got a special guest that we had previously on our show. I’ll let my cohost introduce her. As usual, if you read things that give you some emotion or cause you to think, find somebody to talk to and share your perspectives. We’re not here telling you the truth. We’re sharing our truth and our experiences. It’s really important in the world we live in to have a dialogue into whatever moves you to talk about it or to ask questions. I’m going to encourage you to have an open mind and open heart. I’m going to introduce my cohost, Guadalupe Guadalajara. I’ll let you jump in. How are you doing?

I’m doing extremely well. I continue to be ever so grateful for this show. It’s an avenue for opening the heart and sharing heart stories. I want to remind people, I’m a sister of the holy names. What that means is that I’m committed to healing and repairing the world. Part of my worldview is to always see the goodness in people. What I’ve noticed over the decades how many wonderful White allies I had in my life who do wonderful things that often other White people don’t hear and know about.

As you said, the purpose is to encourage those with White skin privilege who leverage that privilege in very special strategic ways to come on and share their stories so that other White people will say, “I could do that, too. I’d do something similar like that. I’d like to come and share my story.” My dear friend, Sharon Bosserman-Benson, and I go back decades when Sharon was a trainer, facilitator, and consultant in helping nonprofit organizations put together a financial sustainability plan. Sharon and I have stayed connected to each other. Sharon and I have evolved. Sharon has evolved, not surprisingly, in very wonderful, heart-opening, strategic ways in how she thinks about money. With that, I’m going to turn it over to you, Sharon.

Thanks, Guadalupe and Bill, for having me. It’s nice to be back in community with you. I appreciate the opportunity. I wanted to share a few stories, and then we can have a conversation. I wanted to focus on the redistribution of wealth or decolonizing wealth. My context is that I’m an Independent Philanthropic Advisor. What that means is that I help people with their philanthropy.

Specifically, I help people activate and align their values with their giving. I try to do this with the social justice lens, which means there are some pretty interesting conversations with the families with whom I work. It’s been my experience. My background is many years as a professional fundraising in all types of education and social services.

I’ve been fortunate to work with families for many decades. It’s my privilege to devote more time to working with them on their philanthropy and help them get resources out to the world that needs them. Along this journey, I’ve been doing some more diligent work in my own equity journey and causing me to reflect pretty heavily on philanthropy, fundraising, and wealth.

It’s been my experience that White saviorism and White dominant culture are being perpetuated in philanthropy. It’s the responsibility of White fundraisers, White donors, White advisors like myself, and others in the wealth industry to dismantle this. That means using my power as a White woman, sharing my power, sometimes giving up my power altogether, and encouraging my clients, mostly White families, to do the same. Moving forward, I’m trying to work with philanthropists to unpack their wealth’s origins, talk about why philanthropy is necessary, and explore the redistribution of wealth. No small task.

When you talk about your clients, are you talking about the funders, the people who raise money to give to other groups? Is that what you’re referring to as your clients?

No, I’m talking about families that have all sorts of acronyms, high net worth individuals. I’m talking about people with extreme wealth as my clients.

Are they the people who give money to philanthropic organizations?

Correct.

I know you will, but I’d love for you to expand on this whole idea of White saviorism in philanthropy. I’ve experienced this with some of the colleges that I’ve worked with in terms of their fundraising groups, so I’m curious to hear you talk about how that shows up.

Let’s talk about me personally. My motto or personal mission statement has always been, “I’m at my best when I’m helping others.” What does help mean? For many years, I thought I was helping. Now, I’m realizing maybe I wasn’t helping as much as I thought I was. In fact, maybe I was doing harm. I’ve started this no-harm policy, which is different from helping because it’s more specific and more useful in a way. This is not a new concept. No-harm policies are out there all the time. That’s just one way to look at it. Me as a White person trying to do good and not doing harm.

When you talk about no harm, can you elaborate on that a little bit from your perspective? I think what I got from you is that even that idea of helping is like, “How am I helping somebody?” Maybe even a little bit of your approach on how that feels when you think you’re helping versus the idea of no harm.

I would add to that. You have evolved in your consciousness and your awareness. I’m always eager to hear, what was your source of inspiration? What has helped you continue to expand your consciousness that has helped you expand your heart? From my experience, that only comes with people who live with intention.

Let me give you an example. One of the nonprofits that I work for is a children’s literacy nonprofit. They do a lot of good by giving away books and pairing volunteers to read with kids. I channel a lot of families to give donations to this nonprofit. The nonprofit discovered that some of these books had pretty awful stereotypes. We started replacing the books and we’re much more intentional about the books. We learned that there were much better books out there specifically for kids of color, which were much more helpful in doing much less harm. That’s a very specific example.

The other thing is, in philanthropy in general, I think that White people think we know best, quite honestly. We go around telling nonprofits and different groups how to solve problems when it turns out that a lot of those problems were created by us. There are lots of different examples out there, but I’ll give you one. This is an example of harm, what harm means, and a deeper thinking around this.

Many universities have endowments. Lots of the families that I work with give endowments to for universities. Harvard University’s endowment is $53 billion. Think about that, $53 billion in the endowment for students that go to Harvard to get discounted tuition. There are a couple of things that are misaligned here.

Even though they have this large endowment, millions of young people still can’t afford to go to Harvard Community College anywhere. That doesn’t sit very well. Why does this one institution have so much wealth? The other thing is that Harvard itself did some digging around this. They did their own digging around harm.

They put out a report called Harvard & the Legacy of Slavery, where Harvard admitted that their earliest donors who created this endowment made their money from slavery. Slavery produced commodities. That’s a pretty amazing story about people who thought they were doing good by giving and building endowment when that endowment was built on harm.

Did they voluntarily bring that history forward? Did somebody else bring it forward and they just acknowledged that it was real? I’m curious how that came into the conversation.

There’s been a lot more conversation. Even The Chronicle of Philanthropy is a great publication and organization that’s been talking about philanthropy in higher ed for a long time. It has been using a social justice lens and bringing some of these debates to the forefront. I think also, I’ve heard philanthropists talk about the before times.

They’re not talking about the pandemic. They’re talking about the murder of George Floyd. That was a pivotal moment. Atrocities like that murder have been going on forever. There was something about that particular story that philanthropists started to pay attention and listen to. There’s been a lot of pressure on institutions, nonprofits, and philanthropy, in general, to be more intentional and think about some of these issues.

 

That was a real turning point for a lot of people to realize that, “This is real,” that people in the Black community have been talking about these atrocities for a long time. When it’s right there for everyone to see, it’s hard to ignore it anymore. These are great stories. I know that we’re going to get into this whole redistribution of wealth as a part of this conversation. At the college, are they continuing this dialogue? Are they thinking about doing things differently? Are they still in the awareness piece and haven’t quite moved to what kind of actions we should take?

I think that they are moving to the action part, but I don’t know what that’s going to look like for them. I can tell you that endowments and decolonizing wealth, Edgar Villanueva talks about this. Let’s talk about endowments in general. What is an endowment? It’s money that is set aside and hoarded, some people would say, but we’ll just say invested.

It’s kept as a kitty. We only spend the interest from it. It keeps growing and the interest is spent. It has to do with legacy and having a fund in perpetuity. Some people would say, “Why don’t we spend that money now? That money should be spent.” Think about what’s going on in the world right now. There are so many crises. This is the rainy day. We should be spending down on these endowments.

In the foundation world, there’s a lot of pressure on foundations that have significant endowments. Oregon Community Foundation has a $3 billion endowment, and they spend 5% of that every year. There’s a lot of conversation and pressure about why not spend 10%? Five percent is the minimum. Why not spend more? We’re in the middle of a pandemic. We’ve got wildfires in Oregon. The world’s literally on fire. What are we waiting for?

There’s a lot of healthy conversation around that now. I was talking to a family that I work with. This family is setting up an endowment and giving outright and immediate gifts to an organization. I asked her about an escape clause in the endowment because there are equity implications there. She said, “I don’t know what that means, but if it’s helpful to the nonprofit, put in the escape clause. If you really need the money sooner rather than later, it’s your decision.” Not very many institutions have the opportunity of an escape clause and endowment. That’s a technicality. The point is she was thinking what’s best for the organization and lifting as many restrictions as possible.

Some people are really open to creating more justice around the distribution of these resources. You said Harvard has $53 billion, and this other group has $3 billion. In my little brain, I’m thinking, “They could give away a billion dollars and still have a huge endowment. Is that what an escape clause is? If the organization says, “We need these resources for whatever,” they can create a process to distribute more real dollars.

Some people are really open to creating more justice around the distribution of resources. Share on X

Yes, but there are so many technicalities around it. It’s very unusual to have the option for an escape clause. When I was doing fundraising, it’s become a huge industry called planned giving, which is you work with gifts that go immediately to charity, and then you work with gifts that are planned. A bequest would be a type of a planned gift, for example.

There are all sorts of vehicles to help people make planned gifts but also save on taxes. This is an interesting thing. You can give to charity, but you can also save on taxes. That seems like a great idea but really think about it. If more people pay taxes upfront, would we even need philanthropy at the back end? That’s actually a quote from Martin Luther King Jr. He says, “Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice, which make philanthropy necessary.”

 

It goes back to a part of what I know you want to talk more deeply about. It’s this whole redistribution of wealth. As you were talking, I was wondering, are there any organizations of color that have that high of an endowment to the billions of dollars that they use the same way? I don’t know because that’s not my world, but I was just wondering if those organizations exist. Is it predominantly White organizations that have the wherewithal to be able to do that level of an endowment?

Most of the people that hold wealth in this country are a few people and they’re White. Many of those people sit on boards of foundations that give away money, and most of those boards are White. They’re giving away money to organizations that are led mostly by White people. The answer is no. There are very few organizations that are led by people of color that have these deposits of wealth. The reason I just described, which is that White people take care of other White people. There are lots of historic reasons why that wealth has not been generated and furthered. There are many rabbit holes here, but we’ll leave it at that.

There are very few organizations led by people of color that have high deposits of wealth. Share on X

This goes all the way back to when Black Wall Street was burned to the ground. That whole Black community who was on the trajectory to building all that generational wealth lost it in a night or two. I think when we’re talking about the redistribution of wealth, it started a long time ago. I think you’re bringing up what’s happening in 2022, and yet it’s so historical.

Sharon, this is all wonderful, giving us this context and background. I want to make sure that before we end this, I wanted you to come back, not just to focus on the decolonization of money. I want you to use this platform to tell people what you do. You began to describe, “I have a friend who recently said to me that she had come and she figured out how much money she had.”

At some point, I’d like to invite her to talk with you and to get some different ways she might think about being a philanthropist. I asked you to describe what you do, and you began to describe what you do in a way that I thought, “That is so counter to the way the field does it.” It already sends a message that not only do you think about money differently and redistributing differently. It’s how you talk with individuals.

I want to make sure you do some describing of what you do, but also encourage people. As you said, “One of the things I tell them is to pay their share of taxes. Don’t be looking for loopholes.” I want you to talk about some of that. I also want to make sure people know how to contact you and how to reach you once they go, “This is someone I want to talk to.”

Thank you for the invitation to give my commercial. What I do is talk to people about their values, but it goes a little bit deeper. When you are talking to people with means or people that want to set aside some money for philanthropy, it’s very natural to talk to them about their values and legacy. When we put a social justice lens on that, some of those questions sound a little bit different.

I might say, “Tell me about the environmental impact of your family’s business. You became very wealthy and that’s lovely. Tell me about how that happened.” They’re like, “What do you mean? We have a series of ranches.” They then start to talk about their fifth generation, and then we start talking about, “Who really had that land before you homesteaded it? Do you see where I’m going with this?”

We then start talking about things like that land actually belonged to some indigenous community. What does that mean? That land was taken away from them. What was the intent of the ranching and what was the impact? Those are two words that you hear a lot when you’re talking about equity, intent, and impact. I try to talk to families about what the impact was and they are interested in repairing some of that impact.

 

Some people say, “No, we’re not.” That’s when I ask them about their grandkids. What I found with families is that the grandparents, parents, and kids have similar values, but they’re going about things very differently. Their grandkids may say something very differently about the impact. They’re really in tune with what’s happening with the indigenous communities and are interested in repair.

We then start talking about what would that look like? What organizations could we partner with? What would that repair look like? Beyond philanthropy and doing good, this decolonizing wealth talks about using money to repair and obviously not cause any more harm, but have some pretty interesting, mind-blowing, life-altering conversations.

What’s exciting is it’s not just me doing it. There’s a whole movement that’s happening around this. Research generation is a group of next-generation philanthropists who are doing things differently. The Rockefeller heirs are divesting their fortunes away from the oil industry. Who would’ve thought this would be happening?

The other difficult conversation I have with families is about their taxes. What we know about taxes and wealth is there’s a lot of tax evasion. There are a lot of loopholes that people with good counsel can take advantage of. I’ve had families say to me, “I’ve amassed my fortune. Now I’m ready to give it away.” I say, “Let’s unpack that a little bit. What happened during that amassing? Maybe we should talk more about paying some of those taxes upfront. Maybe that would lessen the burden on what needs to be done with philanthropy.” That’s a little bit about what I do. I’m into resources, articles, and how people can change and do things differently. I do have a website. It’s SharonBBenson.com. You can go on there. There are all sorts of resources and helpful readings that you can do if you’re interested in learning more about this work.

Maybe we should talk more about paying some taxes up front. Maybe that would lessen the burden on what needs to be done with philanthropy. Share on X

I hope you’ll put this episode on your website if people want to read about this. Two other things. One of them is you left out something that I thought was very important that you shared with me. I would call it taking a whole-brain approach. You said to me, rather than sit at a table and have this conversation, you invite people to go for a walk.

I remember being so impressed and touched by that because that is what I would call a whole-brain approach. We can go left brain, right brain, or whole brain. “Let’s go on a walk as we talk about your values and about your family’s wealth.” That was something you left out. The other thing you haven’t talked about that I want to make sure about. I think Bill would appreciate this.

I don’t know if you have those resource books in front of you, but I would love for you to tell us the title of these books. I want people to know how well-read you are in the cross-cultural perspective that you’re taking. Bill, Sharon and I were meeting for breakfast at Don Pedro #7 breakfast Tacodilla. and Sharon opened up her bag of tricks and pulled out these amazing resource books. I took a picture of them because I wanted the titles, but use this platform to say, “For those of you that are ready to do something, pick up one, two, three, or all of these books.” Do you have them in front of you?

I do have them in front of me.

Tell us the title and the author.

These are some of my bibles. Let me first say that I want to be clear. In my equity journey, what I’ve learned is, as a white woman, it’s my job to do the work. There is so much learning to be done, and it’s my job to educate myself. There are great resources out here. Some of my favorite ones are Decolonizing Wealth by Edgar Villanueva. That’s an important one.

I loaned how to be anti-racist out, so it’s not part of my stack here. Another great historical perspective, learning about America and the American dream that we didn’t all share or learn about, is Caste. It’s an important one, too. More on the philanthropy front, this Generation Impact is about these new, young philanthropists who are redefining how they’re giving their dollars away. They very often use social justice lens.

Another one of my favorites is We Need to Talk, which is a memoir about wealth. This is written by my friend Jen Risher. She is a person that came into wealth very young. She’s had a wonderful journey and difficult journey at times. She talks about what it’s like to come into wealth. Some people that have extreme wealth can be very isolating. It can be a very isolating and lonely experience. There’s a lot to be said.

My other favorite author is Donna Beegle. She wrote See Poverty… Be the Difference. It’s her journey through poverty and what we can all do to be poverty informed. Another one by a White author is Waking Up White. That’s a pretty gentle first step if you’re interested in being awakened a little bit by a White author. Those are a few of them.

I’m going to assume you list those on your website.

Yes, I do.

I want to do a slight sidebar here on the expression, “the American dream.” My Native friends hate that term because what was the American dream for some was a nightmare for them. I feel I have an opportunity right now to say, let’s stop using that expression. If we do, say, it was a dream for some but a nightmare for indigenous people.

I appreciate that.

I’m doing an intergenerational class, I think I shared with you, at CU Boulder, where they have us 50 and 60-year-olds paired with college students. We were talking about different perspectives on the American dream. One perspective I shared is that I never saw myself in that because it was mostly White people that I saw who had this American dream of the house with a picket fence and all of those things.

It was creating a lot of questions, so it’s an interesting perspective when I’m talking to these juniors and seniors in college. Part of that false narrative was buying a house. Most of these kids don’t ever see themselves buying a home because of the way the economy is. I don’t want to digress, though, because I want to go back.

Sharon, you said a lot of things and I want to acknowledge you as a White woman who has privilege. Who’s chosen to use her privilege in a way that is opening the eyes of people who look like you to understand this whole journey around the social justice of money. In knowing you the little bit that I do, even when they say, “No, I don’t care about repair.” You have a way of staying and keeping them in that conversation.

Even if they had chosen not to before they met you, I’m sure you leave them thinking about it. I think that’s part of what this show is designed to highlight. We alone, as communities of color or privileged White communities, are not going to solve this redistribution of wealth on our own. How do we continue to create collaborative opportunities for us to talk about? When you say the word “repair.” I’m curious if some of your clients don’t go to the word “reparation” and think you’re just giving all their money to poor people or communities of color.

It’s interesting because I know when I talk about that, some people’s mindsets go right there. Some are open to the conversation, others aren’t, and I have my own perspective on that as well. Ultimately, what I’m saying is, I think that it’s great for you to share the journey that you’ve been on that’s gotten you to this place.

It’s obvious exactly what you said that we have to do our own work. It’s something that you’re practicing as well. I want to acknowledge you for all of those things and for the gracious way that you’re bringing it into this bigger conversation so that people are starting to think about not only how you accumulate your wealth but also how you use it in a way that’s beneficial. I appreciate that about you as a human being. I think that’s great.

Another thing that I want to appreciate is you used a very important word in my vocabulary, which was one way, in religious circles, we call that restorative justice. You want to restore the justice that disappeared. You don’t have to give your money away. You could just share your money. You can partner. Often people go to the extreme.

Audre Lorde says human liberation happens in the community. There’s this sense of you can be in relationship, in community, and in partnership with those who could benefit from your wealth. I appreciate that you introduced that concept because that’s the one that I would favor. Be in community, be in relationship and be in partnership so that you have a relationship with those who have been underserved, underrepresented, under resourced, and get to partner with them. You’ll know who the face of who you are bringing up, elevating, and distributing your resources with. I want to acknowledge and thank you for bringing that concept in as well.

Did we cover the topics that you wanted? What can people do? What’s an action that people can do, whether they’re ultra-wealthy, or just regular, or wherever they are in the wealth spectrum? I think we all play a role, if not in giving away money, in at least helping to have this conversation. I’d love for our audience to walk away with something to think about or some tips that you think would be helpful in this whole spectrum. First off, I want to make sure we’ve gotten to the topics you want. Second, what can we do? What are some steps we can take?

One of the things I wanted to mention is, it’s an exciting time in philanthropy. Philanthropy has been done in a certain way for centuries. Now, we’re thinking about it differently. This is an exciting time to be thinking about your philanthropy. There are tons of resources and options. I’ll mention a few things. There’s a vehicle called a donor-advised fund.

If you want to set aside some money for philanthropy but don’t know where to give it yet, you can get a tax deduction by setting up a donor-advised fund and then take your time giving that money away. You can be thoughtful about your giving. There’s a downside to that. It turns out a lot of people put their money in a donor-advised fund and now wait for it.

There’s $160 billion sitting in donor-advised funds. The donor already got the tax deduction. They haven’t gotten that money to charity yet. That’s a problem. This is an exciting time because we have $160 billion that we can move into important charitable work that’s being done. That’s pretty fun. Part of my work is helping people activate their philanthropy. Get them unstuck and get that money out and moving into the community.

There are also some exciting vehicles out there, like no-harm donor-advised funds. There’s a group called Possibility Labs that’s doing some innovative stuff around making sure that these funds are in socially responsible investments, which is a whole another thing. You can talk to your wealth advisor. There are all these vehicles now around social responsible investing. When I started investing many years ago, there was one fund. Now, there are all these different ways to participate in philanthropy and also participate in investing that is socially responsible. I want to make sure and mention that.

The other thing is that there are lots of things that people can do. It doesn’t matter if you have $1 or $1 billion. You can examine the origins of your wealth with your families and you can first acknowledge the privilege of where that wealth came from. That’s a huge stat. White people don’t have to think about racism. That’s a privilege that we don’t have to think about that every day. See how those two things are connected, and then reflect on your values and make intentional choices when you’re allocating your philanthropic dollars. Consider repair, reparations, and doing no harm.

Those are things you can do now. My last piece of advice is, don’t overthink it. Don’t get stuck in analysis paralysis. Just get started. Just find joy in the doing, in giving away your $10, your billion dollars, whatever it is. Just get started and you will very quickly find the joy. It’s a very good thing. It’s an exciting time and it’s time to get started now.

I want to bring in a sidebar that is a human interest element. Sharon, I don’t know if you remember that Carol Channing, when she was part of our work, she had researched that the part of the brain that enjoys the pleasure of giving is the same part of the brain that enjoys sex.

There you have it.

It’s not an either/or, though, is it?

Yes, it can be a both/and, but the sex pleasure center is the same center that gets activated with endorphins when we become donors, give money, and share. I wanted to remind people, you could you can feed two birds with one seed when you give away money.

This great advice is from our sister’s sister.

I’m encouraging people to do that. Bill, I’m so glad that you reminded me, which I always think about the call to action. Sometimes in my excitement, I forget about that. Thank you for bringing in an encouraging and giving Sharon an opportunity to put out there the call for action. Thank you so much, Sharon. It’s been a joy, delight, and pleasure. It’s informational and motivational to have you as our guest and to know the good that you, as an individual, the incredibly positive difference you are doing with your awakened heart. Bill, any closing comment?

I would just second what you said. I’m so glad that Sharon agreed to come back and join us because we missed a lot of this our first time around. I’ve learned a lot. It makes me think too about where are the dollars that I want to give going to and the values. All of the things that Sharon brought up are a lot of things to think about. I appreciate the conversation.

As you said, this is about the awakened heart. The awakened heart is not about the color of your skin or any other identifying factor. It’s about what you do and how you choose to go about doing it. Sharon, thank you so much for being a part of our show. For those of you who have been reading, this is The Origination Point show, and this is our series on the Awakened Heart.

It’s designed to bring White folks who are doing things in their communities in the name of social justice, equity, inclusion, belonging, or just wanting to rehumanize this planet that we live on that I think is challenged to create connections. If you have a compelling story, you can reach out to us at this email, Contact@DelaCruzSolutions.com. That will come to me and we’ll reach out to you and see if you would be a great fit as a guest for our show, the Awakened Heart. Guadalupe, any last words or statements to make people aware of? Any way that your brain can connect to something fun while you’re donating?

I just want to say thank you, Bill and Sharon. Sharon, I would like to also give you an opportunity. Are there any final words you want to share?

No. Thank you so much for having me. I love these conversations and am so grateful for the platform to encourage people to get their philanthropy going and find the joy in the giving.

Thank you, all. We’ll see you in another show in a couple of weeks here.

Yes. We have many lined up.

Subscribe and share with your groups. You’ve been tuning in to The Origination Point show and we are signing off. Thanks for reading.

 

Important Links

• Sharon Bosserman-Benson
• Harvard & the Legacy of Slavery
• Decolonizing Wealth
• Caste
• Generation Impact
• We Need to Talk
• See Poverty… Be the Difference
• Waking Up White
• Possibility Labs
• Contact@DelaCruzSolutions.com
• @Bill.DelaCruz – TikTok
• @BillDelaC – Twitter
• @BillDelaC – Instagram
• https://Anchor.fm/origination-point-podcast/support