In this episode of the Origination Point podcast, Bill is joined by special guest and long time friend, Micheal Johnson. Together, Micheal and Bill discuss a variety of topics, from the problems with our education system to family matters and bias awareness. Enjoy this episode and be sure to subscribe for new episodes!

If you have a question regarding any of the topics that Bill discusses, please feel free to email Bill at: contact@delacruzsolutions.com with a chance to have your question featured on the podcast for our future discussion segments.

 

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The Origination Point Podcast Ft. Micheal Johnson

We are back with the show. We are taking a little break to get things set up for a big move. We are making it out to Portland and we are back at it. We bring you a special interview with a guest and friend of mine, Mr. Micheal Johnson. Micheal and I have known each other for quite a few years and have gone through quite a few things in our education space. We are going to be talking about education, race, bias, and leadership. We are going to hit all of those topics. Micheal, welcome.

Thanks. I’m excited to be here with you. As Bill said, we go back like rocking chairs. We have gone through the fire and glory together. I’m excited to be here as Bill and his family are making a big move. I’m doing the exact same thing. I feel very fortunate in between my travels of moving and relocating to Tallahassee to be able to spend some minutes with an individual that have high esteem and is respectful. Thanks for having me.

It’s great to have you here. You have had quite a journey yourself in education. Tell us a little bit about where you started and then, where you are heading with this big move to Tallahassee.

I’m a country boy from Arkansas and the education has been great. The foundation for me to be an educator was laid down by my parents because education and leadership are all about your moral compass. My parents did a good job laying that for me before I even became a teacher or in any foundation of education. That’s not just for me. It was for myself and my siblings as well.

Education and leadership are all about your moral compass. Share on X

I’m fortunate enough that I ended up with a wife who pushes me hard. She’s my biggest champion and support. Education is a tool that I had a foundation for. I have taught K-8. I have been an elementary teacher and a special education teacher in middle school. I’m very fortunate in my leadership journey. I have led an elementary, middle, and high school and worked as an instructional superintendent.

I have done some of this equity work with you, Bill. In this journey, was named the superintendent at Florida A&M’s Developmental School. The journey has been great. It’s been a great learning. It had challenges, especially when you lead the moral compass of doing what’s right for kids, and that’s always not popular for the masses. It’s been an interesting leadership journey. I look forward to where it goes but has also had great strengths and some challenges as well going through it.

It sounds like the foundation of the family. Your parents’ and wife’s support were a big part of this. We get into a lot of conversations, you and I, about stereotypes and biases. One of the stereotypes is that Black families don’t care about education. That’s completely opposed to what you are sharing.

Education for Black folks is all we had. It was our catalyst to get off the plantation. Once we were “freed,” our only avenue was to obtain through education. It’s baffling when I hear people say that Black folks don’t care about education, but education has not always cared for Black people and that’s the difference.

We will get into a little bit about whom the system was designed for. Tell me a little bit about the greatest achievement or educational success that you had in your career.

A lot of times, it’s the little things. I always tell people the most challenging job was not when I was a school leader, but when I was a special education teacher because I truly had to meet the unique needs of students with very diverse learning styles. This was very early on in my career. I was a special education teacher. It was also the most gratifying job that I had because you got to see things change for the betterment pretty instantly with kids.

In the journey we go in now, especially in leadership, there’s not a lot of instant gratification that comes with the job. I can be out now and run into a quick story and into a kid. I was at the admissions facility and this man came up to me full beard and everything and says, “Are you Mr. Johnson?” I said, “Yes. Did I teach your kid?” He goes, “No. You taught me. I want to say thank you.”

That’s the gratification but you don’t get it instantly. That was some of the work I did early on in elementary school just to see the impact on the fundamental building block time period for students. It’s so many that I can be thankful for. Some of my biggest successes were when you and I met and when I was doing the work at George Washington. They are still trying or attempting to continue that work. When you have been absent for five years and the work that you put forward is still trying to move forward, then that speaks volumes as well.

It doesn’t surprise me that your successes go back to your connections to students in knowing you as I do. Also, in this leadership challenge that you are talking about, I’m curious if we get into a conversation about what’s the connection to whom the system is designed for. We know it was created in the industrial age, public education designed mostly for White males, to be taught by White males. The leadership was White men.

How do you think that played a role in the work that you do? I have seen in the equity work that I have been doing that it’s challenging to put equity into a system that was designed to be equal because the system was designed to meet the needs of a pretty homogeneous group of folks. Now we have all of this diversity and we are talking about, “Let’s be more equitable. Let’s create inclusion,” yet the system doesn’t want to change. I would love to get some of your thoughts on that.

Any system gets what it was designed to produce, and it was never designed to produce intellect amongst Black and Brown folks. When the essence of education was founded, my people were still working in cotton fields. We were never thought of as being intellect, but it was designed to educate, rich to middle-class White males to continue to be our future leaders of America.

 

We haven’t changed that system at all. We continue to say, “How do we enhance or make it better?” If we are trying to make it better, we are trying to make a system better that is a racist and biased system, instead of saying, “How do we deconstruct a system and build it where it’s going to be inclusive, for all kids?”

When we get to the nut of that, here’s the funny thing. I teach at Regis and I was talking to my law students and I said, “Do you realize?” They looked at me. There’s nothing in the constitution that even addresses education. If you go back to even the constitution and it wasn’t addressing education, then now we are talking about doing what’s right or creating equity for all kids. Equity was never even thought about nor was an education in the early formation. I’m not saying we have to rip the system apart, but we have got to have a different conversation around whom we are educating now which are children that look like my children and your children now.

Another piece that comes especially when you are talking about people of color is we live in a system where we always have to prove that we even should be in a system that was never designed for us as well. I remember the old cartoons. You have a devil on one side and an angel on the other. I would equate it to that because you still always live, especially as a leader of color in this limbo like, “I know what’s right, but I also know what’s right.”

We live in a system where the colored people always have to prove that they even should be in the system. It was never designed for them well. Share on X

That’s the complexity that we live in because it’s a reality. A White male’s intellect and educational leadership is never challenged or thought of in the same sense because I always have to prove that I have a place to belong. If that works for me in that manner, what happens to our children that are sitting in classrooms if we don’t see them any differently? It’s hard to love the Black man when you don’t understand the Black child as well, and so, I think that’s an essence.

When I got on the school board in ‘97 in Boulder, I did want to implode the whole system because it’s so archaic and so many of the things that we are doing. If we were to design an educational system for the 21st century of where we are, we wouldn’t do half the things that we do. We are over-testing kids.

We teach kids to take a test, and we miss out on the relational work that is about restorative practices and trauma-informed and culturally responsive pedagogy. The hierarchical structure of education is where the leader sits at the top of the mountain, and if you have enough privilege, you get access to that person. If you don’t, you never get to speak to the leaders who are dictating everything that you need to do.

Districts like Denver and other districts around the country all operate in a pretty strict hierarchy. Even though we are told we are a soft hierarchy, the lived experience of most people is that when you push something up, you can always be told, “This isn’t what we want to do.” Your point about the Black child’s experience in terms of how we see adults extrapolated to our kids is another piece that I don’t think many people think about. It’s the stereotypes and the biases that we are fed every day about Black and Brown people, or my people.

Even the stereotypes that were fed about how Black and Brown people can’t work together or that we have to have some barrier between us because we don’t have similar issues is a whole other piece of this. I see districts that are pretty racialized and that hire based on race. They send people out into the field based on race. They feel like if you put the right color person in front of the right color group, they will be able to sell them on whatever it is that the district wants.

You hit a couple of things. We talk about deconstructing as moving away from a savior. Black and Brown folks aren’t looking to be saved. We are looking for an opportunity to be prosperous in this work. That’s the first thing, and then the foundation when I talk about as a dad and a husband, going back to me being a son and a brother is relationships. If we could ever figure out that this is relational work, you and I have talked about this. We have done professional development together where we talk about the relationship piece.

It amazes me how far we have moved away from this being relational work in which it is. How can we ever ask any child, Black, White, and Brown to rise to the occasion when we don’t know who they are and why are we asking them? It’s funny. I was in a school a while back, and I was talking to a kid. The kid told me, he’s like, “Can I tell you something? This is the most I have talked to anyone.” I wasn’t even the principal. I was a visitor. I asked him, “What about your principal?” It was amazing because the kid said, “I don’t know who my principal is.”

It amazes me. It doesn’t matter the hue of the kid. It matters to me if this is a kid going through a system where they don’t even have a relationship with an adult. Even more specifically, Black folks are very relational. If you are talking about helping Black and Brown kids and you don’t formulate a relationship with them, then you are worried about their map scores. Their map scores are being dictated because they don’t have a relationship. With you create a relationship, then you will see whatever data or points you want to see change, you will see those points change.

 

I was asked as I was going into this new role, “What are your top three things that you are going to do as a superintendent in Florida?” I said, “The top three, that’s very easy. Relationships, relationships, and relationships.” We got to get to the nut and bolt of educating kids. I told them I’m coming into a culture that was already created.

I’m okay with teachers, principals, and whoever knowing that I’m Micheal and I have kids because that’s the relationship point. If you just ask me, we have moved so far away from that avenue and that’s what’s perpetuating the results that we are getting in our schools especially when we are talking about our Black and Brown children.

It’s interesting across the country, it’s the same conversation. There are a couple of things that are archaic. One is that we still do seat time. One hundred and eighty-two days if your butt’s in the seat, you can graduate high school with all Ds and reading at a tenth-grade level because you were there. What I ask people when we are doing work is, “How many of you get paid to come to work to show up?” Nobody does. We all get paid based on our competencies.

One push that we need to do in public education is to move more to a competency base because we are not teaching kids competencies. We are teaching them how to memorize a test so they can pass it and the teachers in the school look good. The other piece around this relational approach is that we are so assessment-driven.

When I talk to teachers and administrators about doing relational work as adults in the building, they say, “We would like to do that but we are not assessed on how well we have a relationship with each other with our students. We are assessed based on test scores.” The idea of equity, restorative practices, and culturally responsive pedagogy is all relational. Here’s my question for you. You are stepping into the role of the superintendent, the leader of this district. How will you look to change things so that your folks will answer this question differently?

Let me ask the question that I have asked teachers. I ask them, “How much time have you spent getting to know each other?” Having conversations about who you are, who your family is, and what you like to do, nothing about data and structure and curriculum common core. The answer across the board was 0 to 30 minutes. That’s my question. What are some of your ideas to create a more relational district where you are heading to be the leader?

This will sound very cliché-ish, but if you talk to students that I have taught before, leaders that I have led, and teachers that I have supported and worked beside, I stand beside them in this. It’s easy to set in as we would say the Ivory Tower and make the decisions, but I always say that was some of my need to grow even as a school principal because I spent so much time out with students and folks.

I always pride myself and like to tell my leaders that I can sit down and have a conversation with you about you going to the Portland area and how many miles your car get to a gallon because we stood out and talked about it. Just like I can come in and talk to you about what you are doing to improve math scores. That’s not formulating a relationship and getting you to do that. I always tell people, “If you can build a relationship with people that you are leading and working beside, they will jump off the cliff with you because they know you have already put a parachute on their back, and that parachute is that relationship.”

Going into this new role, it’s pretty similar that the times I have gone out I have spent nothing but time with people and asking questions and letting them ask me questions. It’s been cool because it’s been a little different. I will be honest because I have gotten questions about my well-being. I was in a meeting and telling my wife, “Where do you go to church?”

People are concerned about your well-being, spiritual being, and social being.

It’s the whole Micheal. It’s a little different. My wife and I were in Tallahassee. We went into the diner across from campus. It’s an old mom-and-pop-type diner. The owner came out. Everyone knows and we told her we were coming into the community and moving in. She said great. She never asked me like, “How are you going to improve test scores?” She wanted to know, “Do we have babies?” I said, “I have teenagers.” She says, “That’s good. You need to bring them over here, let me fatten them up, and send them home to you.”

That’s cool to me because they are knowing me as Micheal. I just happened to be the superintendent. That’s how I have operated. In the time that we have been there, my wife and I have been like going out into the community, not necessarily with the school folks, but like the example I gave you. I have got to do the work to ensure that we are educating and meeting the needs of kids so that they are prepared for whatever options they want. I haven’t dived into that. I can’t lie.

I have been studying my game plan and looking at data and how I want to move the district. When I have been there, I spent more time out in the community talking with people. The essence is you got to be out there and be willing so that people know, “I met Micheal who happens to be the new superintendent,” and this is what I felt.

What you are saying, and I think is why you and I resonate together in this work, is that relationships matter. When you connect relationships to strong curriculum and instruction, that’s where you see not only high academic achievement, you also see high social-emotional learning intelligence grow because that’s another big factor that people are looking at all over the country. How do we increase the social-emotional intelligence of our students?

We can’t do that if we don’t increase the social-emotional intelligence of the adults who are in front of our students. The debate is, do you model those types of skills or do you teach them? My belief is you model them. I can’t teach Micheal how to be respectful, but I can model respect to you so that you understand that as two human beings, we can get along with each other when we agree and disagree, and we can leave friends or colleagues and continue to do the work. The relationship piece is the other part.

Let’s talk a little bit about community engagement because we both know here in Denver that community engagement is not always genuine to the point of what you talked about. Even my experience in hanging out with my wife who’s going to be a superintendent in Lake Oswego when we go around and people want to know who we are. Do we like to hike? Where do we like to eat? How do we continue to engage?

Right now, in our city, there’s a divide between the Black, Brown, and White community. They are working to mend those barriers, yet I also know that there’s a historical context to it. What do you think are some of the answers to those pieces? You and I are sitting here. You are a Black man. I’m a Brown man. We have been working together pretty well for a number of years, so it’s not impossible. What do you think is disempowering people to make that step to reach?

Some of it goes back to your opening. We are trying to do things without acknowledging why we are where we are. Why are we so divided and what are the systems that continue to keep us divided? I strongly believe and many can contest this that read the show. I say, “Cool but show me differently.” A lot of times, there’s a systematic approach to keep especially Black and Brown folks separated and figuring that they have to have an oppression Olympics. My problem is worse than yours.

If you are at the bottom, the problems are very similar, although they may be different. I always have said, “What in the world would happen if Black and Brown communities say, ‘We have had enough, we are taking responsibility for our own, and we are demanding that change?’” The essence of it is we have to look at that word that no one wants to talk about. How is institutional racism played into our current situation? We will say it, but then we go, “How do we go about doing it?” You have got to go back to your analogy. When you are in Boulder, we got to deconstruct this and rebuild it. Also, people benefit economically from our divides as well.

How is institutional racism played into our current situation? That is the topic no one wants to talk about, but should be discussed. We shouldn’t wait for black and brown people to get sick and demand change before we start it. Share on X

It’s an interesting dichotomy there. When I was on the school board, I did a lot of work in Denver during the legislative session. I heard some White politicians say, “Let’s throw a crumb or a piece of this pie to the Black and Brown community. Let them fight over it because as long as they are fighting with each other, they don’t have enough time to create a network and a group that has enough power to move us.” In some ways, our fighting with each other plays into that institutional system because we never get it together to challenge the structure to say, “This is what institutional bias and racism look like.”

The next step is doing what you and I are doing right now. Let’s have a conversation but our conversation has to be a verb conversation. You say, “Why a verb conversation?” If it’s an active conversation, we have got to do something about it. We have a lot of pronoun conversations. I and then, there’s very little action that it bursts. We have got to be able to have conversations where we say, “How do we make this work to benefit Black and Brown kids?”

Here’s the other thing. I remember this at George Washington, specifically when people assumed that I wanted to marginalize White students for the benefit. White students dug it and they were down for it if you remember the changes. When we start talking about how we go about deconstructing things, people begin to look at, especially when we talk about equity, that you are going to take something from them and give it to someone else. Meaning, I’m going to lose my power grip and you are going to give that power grip to someone else. That’s the ignorance of it all. We are saying, “How do we create a system that we can all sit down and get a piece of the pecan pie together?

That’s the crux of this issue. A lot of times what’s fed to the White community is that if we do equity work in the Black and Brown community, then you are going to lose something. The argument I had when I was on the school board was that if we push the bottom up, it pushes everybody up. I would submit, and you can disagree with me if you want, that none of our kids are being served in the way they should be in the system. Even our most highly gifted and talented to our most needy students with special needs and everyone in between are not being served in a system that wasn’t designed for them.

 

If we all get behind the bus and push it and it moves, it benefits all of us. It is the most baffling thing. Many people say, “That’s a socialist idea.” “Jesus was a socialist.” Call it socialist. If we do it for the least, it benefits the best of us. That’s the piece that I struggle with. When we talk about this work and doing what’s right by kids, we talk about, “Let’s do it,” because you have got to concentrate on those that are at the lowest point. Right now, it is our Black and Brown kids.

Just because we push them and give them support doesn’t mean that White, Asian students, or whoever is at the top grid are going to be neglected. In the system that we have, also, our top performers as many times can be neglected as those are there on the bottom as well. A lot of times, what that ends up is you are not tapping into potentials that could be elevated as well.

 

I read something about Einstein. In a classical classroom setting now, he probably would be put out in the hallway because his thinking is so much different. Think about Paul Robeson. “You sound too boisterous and we can’t have you here.” We have to push the bus all together to get it to move so that it benefits all of us. We can all then jump on the bus and it will roll downhill. It doesn’t matter if you are in the front, back, or middle. We are all on that bus as it’s rolling down the hill that wouldn’t move.

We got a lot of pushing to do, some big work. That’s why we are engaging in this conversation. We have started it and we are going to continue to push it. Before we conclude, I want to ask you what you want your impact to be in the world and your legacy many years from now. You are looking back at your life. What do you want to accomplish?

It’s going to sound simplistic. The first thing, I want my kids to say, “He was a dad. He was our father.” I would want my wife to say, “He was a husband. At the end of it all, he created thinkers.” Whatever the dash. In that dash, you have the beginning and then you have the end of that dash. That is important. If they write across that dash, he created some thinkers. Our ordained responsibility is, are we creating thinkers that can think for themselves when they need to? That’s the legacy. “He had an impact. It may be small but he had some impact on this work in regard to educating kids and creating an equitable platform for all kids.”

I can tell you that since I met you and we have been talking, we have done a lot of thinking together and you have increased my thought process. Even when we didn’t agree with each other, we still found a point of connection.

That’s important though. We are still sitting here having a conversation even if we disagreed. We didn’t walk away saying, “We can’t ever do this again.” I thank you even for saying, “Come on to my show,” because although we can agree and agree to disagree, at the end of it all, we are both saying, “Let’s do what’s right for all kids.”

Remind us where you are heading as superintendent.

First of all, Micheal D. Johnson. I’m from Fort Smith, Arkansas, a kid of North 30th Street. I have been very fortunate and I’m headed to Tallahassee, Florida where I will be the superintendent at Florida A&M University’s Developmental and Research Schools. I’m very excited about the opportunity to continue to lead and support leaders to be able to have an impact on students.

I will be excited to continue to support your journey as you dive into this new role. You have been reading the show on all things around relationships and education. We are going to continue to dissect and dive deeper, especially looking at education and systems and how they impact the people they were designed for and the people whom they weren’t designed for. If you enjoy this show, please share it. Share it on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Ask your folks to subscribe to it. We are looking to get 1 million subscribers. We appreciate it and go and bust some biases, and thank you for reading. Have a great day. Any last words, Micheal D. Johnson?

No. Best to you and continue to go onward.

 

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